We are not the bad guys here!
While it is very flattering for the Conservatives to be talked about as if we are already in government, we're not. Gordon Brown is the Prime Minister at the moment and Labour are in government. They are the ones who made a promise of a referendum and could have delivered on that promise. They didn't.
It is no longer possible to have a referendum on the ratification of the Lisbon treaty.
The treaty has already been ratified, while I don't like that fact at all, it is the truth. If we were to have a referendum on Lisbon what would the question be? We can't ask if the UK should ratify the treaty in the future tense, and if we ask "should the UK have ratified the treaty?" what would we do with the answer?
As Conservatives we should not base our future actions on our opponents' version of history.
The left are trying to paint David Cameron as going back on a "cast iron pledge" to hold a referendum whatever happened. Only he never said that. As you can see from this contemporary report David Cameron has broken no promise at all:
He said a referendum could take place "absolutely no problem at all" while it was still being discussed in Europe. But he admitted it was more difficult if there was no general election until 2010 and if all member states had ratified it without holding a referendum.
We are, both as a country and as a party, in a crappy position, not of our making. Gordon Brown has stitched us all up and David Cameron is going to have to come up with a plan of action. I think it is worth waiting and listening to what he has got to say before helping the left damage our election chances.
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11 comments:
James you miss the point. Of course Labour has reneged on their promise - much to their shame.
However,the point is the original notion of a "Common Market" which was a reasonable concept , soon became something much more sinister.The creation of a superstate Europe where democratic rights of individual countries are trampled on and we get ever closer to the Big Brother and 1984 mentality makes every right thinking Briton shudder.
Well said James.
I'm fed up of these people who froth at the mouth at the mere mention of Europe.
Yes, the EU is undemocratic. Yes, Lisbon is not a nice treaty.
But beating our chests endlessly over the fact we don't get a referendum is pointless. Even Tim Montgomerie (a BOO man) has pointed out that the proposed 'mandate manifesto' is a better idea. Taking the fight to Europe as a govt is much better.
Time for some people to grow up and try living in the real world.
What a load of bollocks!Now comes the Tory spin " he didnt really mean we would have a referendum " i know thats what i thought he meant, the only way forward now wil be a campaign to get us out altogether, i will be voting UKIP now and there will thousands like me, it could cost call me Dave the election.
Is that the real world where our leaders say they will have a referendum and don't ?
Is it the real world where politicians defraud the exchequer and get paid off instead of being charged ?
Is it the real world where we can afford billions to bail out the banks but can't afford to provide a livable pension ?
I prefer my fantasy world where we have a referendum with one question, EU In or Out.
I totally agree with you, James.
The sneering Huw Edwards was a disgrace on the BBC News last night, trying to make out that David Cameron was as duplicious as Gordon Brown.
I really think that people should accept Lisbon as an accomplished fact, however unfortunate, and focus on how we intend to make our mark on Europe. See here http://tinyurl.com/yhopcne for the first campaign - the Right2Bet Campaign - hoping to be the first to utilise Lisbon's "Citizens Initiative" provision. Grassroots campaigns like Right2Bet can make a difference in the post-Lisbon era. Citizens forcing their leaders to adopt free and fair trade and restore personal freedoms? Sounds appealing!
The left are trying to paint David Cameron as going back on a "cast iron pledge"
I can't believe you are now accusing Guido, Tim Montgomerie, and the Bruges Group of being left-wing. If they are left-wing I think that makes you a Marxism.
Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations. - David Cameron quoted on Guido.
Ken Clarke for president of Europe!
The real man deserve it..
It would be constitutionally absurd to have a referendum on a ratified treaty but that would not make it a worthless exercise as a referendum has two aspects: national public discussion and a binding vote. People want the former as much as the latter because it compels politicians to make their case to the public, whatever you say about carefully wording and rewording the question. The full value of politicians, journalists and the general public knowing exactly what the opinion of the country is - the percentages on each side -can never be quantified or underestimated.
If David Cameron seeks to renegotiate Britain's obligations under the ratified Lisbon Treaty, there is an argument for his proceding in that direction with a clear public mandate. At the moment politicians don't know what the public actually thinks of the Lisbon Treaty and without the sort of engagement in thorough public discussion which - when the governemnt is advocating a pro-European position at least - a referendum necessitates, the public won't be able to make an informed decision either, and Cameron will procede on the basis of an instinctive, largely uninformed Euro-sceptic consensus.
So here's an idea: why doesn't Cameron hold a referendum on his governemnt's response to the Lisbon Treaty? And the Liberal Democrats and pro-European voices would then have an incentive to make their case.
Not a purley rhetorical point - if a referendum isn't possible, there may be an option that amounts to more than burying the idea of public consultation at all, because educating the public and gaiging national opinion is a principle that can always be made applicable to something.
James,
This is Cameron's piece for the sun (his words):
"ON Monday The Sun's image of Gordon Brown sticking two fingers up to the British public was provocative. But it was right.
What a difference to Churchill. When he made that salute, it inspired this country to wipe the scourge of fascism from Europe.
But for Gordon Brown, it's a gesture to the British people saying: "I know best. Your views are irrelevant. Get used to it."
Make no mistake, that's the reason he refuses to give the British people a referendum on the EU constitutional treaty - he simply doesn't trust them. It's the arrogant belief that he - and only he - has the right to decide what's best for Britain's future.
Well, Prime Minister, I've news for you. The old politics that you grew up in no longer reflect the new world we live in. It's a world where people are demanding - and getting - more power and more control over their lives.
cameron: ll give you EU vote
Take America. Over there, twice as many people get health information online than from their doctor. And in some towns, you can look at online crime maps before deciding where to buy a property.
And in the UK, the internet has transformed lives. At the click of a button we buy insurance, holidays and access information on just about anything. Gordon Brown just doesn't get this. With him, freedom and control is fine - but only if he has the freedom to control your life.
Take Citizens Juries. He says he wants to listen to people. But they are just glorified focus-groups, hand-picked and cloaked in secrecy. Believe me, if they really reflected the will of Britons the message would be loud and clear - we want a referendum.
It doesn't have to be like this. Giving people freedom and control over their lives is one of the things that makes me a Conservative.
And it is why from the moment the EU Constitution was dreamt up by elites in Brussels, the Conservative Party's squadron was first in the air, demanding a referendum in this battle for our country's future.
Since then, we have been keeping up the fight, looking out for the interests of Britain.
There is a second reason why I want a referendum on the treaty.
One of the great challenges we face is rolling back the tide of bureaucracy that is drowning our country in regulations and forms.
And you can't do that without targeting one of the main sources of this bureaucracy - Brussels.
Because it is Europe that ties our businesses up in red tape.
And it is Europe that ties the hands of our courts. We won't be able to deal with any of this unless we have a referendum.
The final reason we must have a vote is trust. Gordon Brown talks about "new" politics.
But there's nothing "new" about breaking your promises to the British public. It's classic Labour.
And it is the cancer that is eating away at trust in politics. Small wonder that so many people don't believe a word politicians ever say if they break their promises so casually.
If you really want to signal you're a break from the past, Prime Minister, do the right thing - give the people the referendum you promised.
Today, I will give this cast-iron guarantee: If I become PM a Conservative government will hold a referendum on any EU treaty that emerges from these negotiations.
No treaty should be ratified without consulting the British people in a referendum."
I agree Labour lied - again, but 2 wrongs don't make a right. People have argued ove the semantics but the thrust of the piece has obviously been reneged on.
He needs to announce an in orout referendum to heal the split, get UKIP supporters back and win some others.
Whay are ALL politicians so scared of the people's will?
Have you seen some of the people out there?! Bring on the nanny state.
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